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House State Agencies
March 1, 2023
Rep Tosh Chair sees a quorum. This meeting is called to order. If anyone is here that wants to speak for or against any of the bills on today’s agenda, please be sure to sign up. That signup sheet is just outside the door or let us know here and we’ll get you, we’ll get you signed up to speak for or against anything on today’s agenda. If you’re here for any of the following bills, and also for Committee members, House Bill 1444 will not be heard today. I’m moving that bill to deferred. And with that, I guess the rest of the agenda we’re ready to get started started with. So we’ll start with House Bill 1405. Representative Painter. Representative, if you would just identify yourself to the Committee and then you’re recognized present your bill.
Rep. Painter Thank you, Mr. Chair. Stetson Painter, District 3. Committee, this bill is really simple, it’s a half a page. HB 1405 brings our code up to 21st century language. All it does is get rid of old terminology that we do not use anymore. And that, I’ll close.
Rep Tosh Okay. Any questions from Committee members? Okay, no one has signed up speak for or against the bill. Representative Bentley, you’re recognized for a motion. Representative Bentley has made a motion of do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. All opposed, say no. Congratulations, your bill is passed.
Rep. Painter Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Committee.
Rep Tosh I believe Representative McAlindon is running a bill in another committee, making sure she’s not– okay, we’ll skip over that and we’ll go back to that bill when she shows up. Representative Furman, House Bill 1457. Representative Furman, if you would just have a seat at the end of the table, identify yourself to the Committee and you’re recognized to present your bill.
Rep. Furman Thank you, Mr. Chair. Tony Furman, District 82. House Bill 1457 creates the Arkansas Poll Watchers Bill of Rights Act. It does a few things. One thing it does is it directs the State Board of Election Commissioners to develop an online training program for poll watchers so they know their rights and their duties. It distinguishes election workers between poll watchers with respect to their individual responsibilities. It strengthens public confidence in elections. It allows poll watchers to be easily identifiable by requiring them to wear name badges with their name on it. It better defines the duties of a poll watcher. There’s actually one amendment I made– it’s already engrossed– that clarifies and really makes the process of challenging a ballot much more efficient. Let’s see, yeah, that’s it.
Rep Tosh Okay. Any questions from Committee members? Representative Clowney, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Furman, this is just a pretty lengthy bill. Can you walk me through what that challenge process looks like under your proposal?
Rep. Furman Yeah. Originally, it said that a poll watcher, if they wanted to execute a challenge, they have to notify the election sheriff. And to my understanding, the election sheriff is all over the place during the process. And the time frame you have to challenge a ballot is very quick. And if you’re trying to locate the sheriff, by the time you get back, the person is signed in and you can’t challenge the ballot. So the amendment was to just notify the poll worker and the process pauses until the sheriff can come to the table and then they can execute the challenge process at that point.
Rep Tosh Recognized for a follow up.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Do you have a sense of how long it typically takes once that process is initiated? If something is challenged, which, a poll watcher can challenge if they feel that there’s need for it, right? So in a sense, the person who’s voting doesn’t necessarily need to have done anything wrong to be challenged. How long will it take once that challenge process is initiated? If we’re making it that easy for a challenge, how much longer do we anticipate that that will take to kind of clear up if we’re still waiting on the election sheriff to show up? You know, my concern, just so that I’m clear with you about it, is that we are going to be holding up people and erecting more barriers to their voting, even when there’s no reason for those barriers to exist in that particular case. So do you anticipate that this will take a lot of the voter’s time, more time than it takes currently if they are waiting for that election sheriff to show up once a poll watcher has been notified before they sign in?
Rep. Furman There’s somebody from the Secretary of State’s office that’s probably more equipped to answer that. So, Mr. Chair, with your permission, I’d like to have Josh Bridges join me at the table.
Rep Tosh Granted. Sir, if you would just have a seat at the end of table. Identify yourself to the Committee, who you represent.
Bridges (SoS) Josh Bridges, election systems analyst for the Secretary of State.
Rep Tosh Okay, you’re recognized.
Bridges (SoS) Representative Clowney, thank you for that question. I don’t know that there’s really a good answer necessarily for that. The language in this bill is not going to belabor anybody necessarily from waiting longer than normal. Whenever a ballot is challenged, that voter is required to vote a provisional ballot at that point initiated by the poll sheriff. So as I think we all know, the polling location is quite busy and the poll sheriff is kind of the the main person in charge. So like Representative Furman said, they can be all over the place a little bit. And basically what this amounts to is it just simply pauses until the sheriff can come over and begin the process of having that voter vote a provisional.
Rep Tosh Have another follow up?
Rep. Clowney Yes, Mr. Chair.
Rep Tosh You’re recognized.
Rep. Clowney Thank you. Right, and it’s that pause that I’m concerned about, I guess. If they’re voting provisionally anyway, I guess I don’t understand the need. If this will result in a provisional ballot, whether it’s the way that it is now or the way that it is under this proposal, I don’t understand why that additional wait time for the voter increases security in any way. All that I see that that does is make it harder on the voter. Can you speak to that a little bit, please? Thank you.
Bridges (SoS) Sure. I think I understand your question. The challenge of a ballot is nothing new necessarily, but the requirement under the law currently, even without this bill, is that the poll sheriff is to handle the situation, not necessarily the poll worker or whoever’s checking in the voters. So that’s not a new requirement. Whenever a ballot is challenged, there will be a wait time for the voter. I understand that nobody wants to be put in that position. But we also have to keep the playing field even and make sure that poll watchers’ duties and rights are protected as well.
Rep. Clowney One more, I promise.
Rep Tosh One more.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Sorry, very simple yes or no, will this increase the wait time for a voter whose ballot is challenged from the way that it is now?
Bridges (SoS) I don’t know that it’s a simple yes or no necessarily because there will be a wait time that’s inevitable.
Rep Tosh Mr. Bridges, I have a question. I direct your attention in the bill to the bottom of page 3, which says that a poll watcher who violates this section may be expelled from all the polling locations in the county for the duration of the election by the county board and so forth. Now, that’s the penalty for a poll watcher that somehow interferes with an individual’s constitutional right to cast their vote. However, at the beginning of page 4, it says that an election official or public official or anyone who may interfere with a poll worker that they could be subject to or be convicted of a Class A misdemeanor. I’d just kind of like an explanation. If a poll worker does something wrong and they violate an individual’s right or they do something they shouldn’t, then the penalty is just banned from being able to participate anywhere in the county for the rest of that election. Doesn’t even carry over to the next election. But if an elected official does the same or interferes with a poll worker, then they’re guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Seem like there’s just such a disparity there between those two. And could you explain that?
Bridges (SoS) Yes, sir. I can do my best on that. So just to clarify, on the top of page 4, line 3, it says that a poll watcher– I think. Mr. Chair, I think you might have said poll worker– so just to clarify that point, I’m not sure specifically why there is that disparity there, but I think this is an attempt to ensure that poll watchers are understanding of what they could be up against if they violate the law. And on the other side of the coin that the local election officials, such as the poll workers or the election commissioners who already understand those requirements or should understand those requirements are held to a higher standard because they’re technically the custodians of that election. They’re responsible for running the election. So they should already be aware of that requirement.
Rep Tosh In your opinion, do you think, though, since there’s such a disparity in the penalties that apply here, do you think that would somehow maybe intimidate an elected official from even approaching a poll worker that may be doing something wrong out of fear of being charged with a Class A misdemeanor? Do you think that possibly could happen?
Bridges (SoS) I think it’s fair to say that that’s definitely a possibility. And I wouldn’t disagree with you, Mr. Chair. But at the same time, the election commissioners, we all know that the election commission and the county clerk’s office, they run the election. So it’s our goal, in conjunction with State Board of Election Commissioners, to ensure that all election officials are very well versed in the requirements under the law and that they understand when and when they cannot approach a poll watcher or challenge a poll watcher, so.
Rep Tosh Okay. Thank you. Representative Wardlaw, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Wardlaw I think I want to understand the requirement for the training a little bit better and how the training is going to be paid for. I think this is somewhat what we talked about in Special Language this morning. But we’re already having trouble in the rural areas, finding volunteers to be poll watchers in our outlying areas. And one thing that concerns me is we put training on this where it’s online or in person, however that– I think this allows for either/or– are we limiting polling sites even more? Because these folks may or may not do the training and then we still can’t have those poll sites. I just don’t want to kill the rural areas from being able to find volunteers to do this, but I want them to be educated. So it’s kind of a two-edged sword there.
Bridges (SoS) Sure. I just want to ask one point of clarification on your question, Representative. Are you referring to rural areas having a hard time recruiting poll watchers or–
Rep. Wardlaw Yes. Yes.
Bridges (SoS) Poll workers? Poll watchers. Okay.
Rep. Wardlaw Or both.
Bridges (SoS) Okay.
Rep. Wardlaw Truthfully.
Bridges (SoS) Sure. We all know that poll workers are hard to come by. But as far as poll watchers are concerned, I think the intent of this is to just ensure that the poll watchers are going to be well versed in their duties, their rights and what they can and cannot do. As opposed to hoping and assuming that when they come in to be a poll watcher that they already are aware of it. So this is going to give them the luxury of having training, whether it’s in person or online, to where they are aware of their rights and responsibilities.
Rep Tosh You need a follow up?
Rep. Wardlaw I’ll get back in the queue.
Rep Tosh Representative Berry, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. M Berry Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I think Representative Wardlaw addressed most of my question because I come from a district with several rural counties, and in every one of the counties in my district are challenged every election for poll workers and watchers. But while I’m all for the intent of the of this bill, I do have a question about the training and can you address the training? How long is the training? You know, is it a week long? Do they do it in a day? You know, who’s the resource to pay for the training, and is that going to be a burden on the county?
Rep. Furman It’s a great question. And, Mr. Chair, it seems like there’s a few questions and I don’t mind pulling this bill down. We don’t have to go through this real fast. We can address these concerns and work on it if need be and come back and run it later if that pleases the committee.
Rep Tosh Representative, is that your request to the Chair that you want to pull the bill down?
Rep. Furman Yes, sir.
Rep Tosh That request is granted. We’ll see you back in here when you make your corrections. Thank you, sir, for being here today. Thank you, Mr Bridges. Committee, next item on today’s agenda is House Bill 1461. Representative Ladyman. And if you would, just state your name for the Committee and then you’re recognized to present your bill.
Rep. Ladyman Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Jack Ladyman, District 32. I have HB 1461. The title of that is An Act to Require Legislative Review of New Federal Election Guidance and to Amend the Duties of the Secretary of State. The bill does basically three things. It provides a means for counties to notify the state of any federal inquiry into election issues in their county. All state and county election officials must submit– this is number 2– all state and county election officials must submit any new federal election guidance to the Secretary of State within two business days of receipt. Number three, this will help prevent federal overreach and protect state sovereignty with regard to elections. And what’s behind this bill is if the federal government comes in and goes directly to the county, they need to notify the Secretary of State so they know what’s going on within our state. So that’s the basic thing behind that. I’d be happy to take any questions.
Rep Tosh Any questions from Committee members? Representative Meeks, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Meeks Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative Ladyman for the bill. I just want to make sure I fully understand this, that when the county gets notified by the federal government of some election change, they’ll notify the Secretary of State, and then the Secretary of State will then let us know so that we can make any modifications? Or does just the Secretary of State handle it?
Rep. Ladyman Well, if necessary, they would notify us.
Rep. Meeks Right. Okay.
Rep. Ladyman Some of the things the Secretary of State could handle. They just want to know if the federal government is involved and be able to work with the counties and then bring that to us if necessary.
Rep. Meeks Okay, excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep Tosh Representative Clowney, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Sorry, Representative Ladyman. And you may have said this, but I didn’t hear it. Secretary of State wants this bill, is that correct? I’m sorry. Let me rephrase that question.
Rep. Meeks I don’t know. You’d have to ask them that. But it wasn’t brought to me by the Secretary of State. It was something that I heard about and got interested in and thought it was a good thing.
Rep. Clowney Okay, I guess– sorry, follow up, Mr. Chair?
Rep Tosh You’re recognized.
Rep. Clowney Thank you. My concern then is, do you know where the Secretary of State’s office is on this bill? And is there any way that we’re running the risk of legislative branch overreach with this bill?
Rep Tosh Representative Clowney, let me do this at this point with that question– is anyone in here from the Secretary of State’s office?
Rep. Ladyman Yeah, they’re here.
Rep Tosh Would you just have them have a seat at the end of the table? And Representative Clowney, if you’d be recognized, ask that question to– if you would just state your name to the committee?
McGraw (SoS) Chantelle McGraw. I’m the assistant director of elections.
Rep Tosh Okay. Representative Clowney has a question for you. If you didn’t hear it, well, she’ll be glad to repeat it.
McGraw (SoS) I did hear your question. We’re fine. We’re fine with this bill.
Rep Tosh Okay. Thank you. Any further questions from Committee members? Seeing none, no one has signed up to speak for or against the bill. Representative Ladyman, you’re recognized to close for your bill.
Rep. Ladyman I’m closed for my bill.
Rep Tosh Representative Ladyman is closed with his bill. Representative Meeks has a motion of do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. Congratulations, Representative Ladyman, your bill is passed.
Rep. Ladyman Thank you, Committee.
Rep Tosh Next item on today’s agenda will be House Bill 1464. Representative Burkes. Are you— there you are. Would you state your name for the Committee and then you’re recognized to present your bill.
Rep. Burkes Representative Rebecca Burkes, District 11. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. House Bill 1464 is a bill that deals with complaints of election law violations. It allows more time for complaints to be made about these violations. Currently, complaints have to be filed with the State Board of Election Commissioners no later than 30 days following the certification of an election by a county board. This bill changes that to say no later than 30 days following the deadline to certify. So it makes uniform across the state when these election law violations complaints have to be made. It also clarifies that the State Board of Election Commissions will– how they will respond to complaints and allows for an offer of settlement. So you can see there on the second page that after the State Board may make an offer and the offer is rejected and they may have a hearing and then they have 240 days to conclude the action. And then it finally clarifies the circumstances in which a sealed package of ballots that’s in storage for that two year storage period after the election has been certified, how those can be accessed. Currently the law says that they can be accessed by a direction of a competent tribunal, written instruction signed by the director of State Board of Election Commissions. And this adds upon receipt issued by a State Board of Election Commissions. I’m happy to answer any questions.
Rep Tosh Any questions from Committee members? No one has signed up to speak for or against the bill. Representative Burkes, you’re recognized to close with your bill.
Rep. Burkes I’m closed with the bill.
Rep Tosh Representative is closed with the bill. Do I have a motion? Have a motion from Representative Meeks of a do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. All opposed, say no. Congratulations Representative, your bill is passed.
Rep. Burkes Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep Tosh Committee members, going back up the agenda to House Bill 1411. I believe Representative McAlindon is here with us now. So if you would just have a seat at the end of the table, identify yourself to the Committee, and you’re recognized to present your bill.
Rep. McAlindon Thank you, Chairman. I’m Representative Mindy McAlindon, House District 10. I’m presenting to you today a bill that I presented a couple of weeks ago. It is House bill 1411. This bill was pulled down to clarify some language. County clerks had asked that we just clarify exactly what we mean by a blank ballot to be sure that they are able to still print the necessary information on the absentee ballot when it’s requested, but that nothing that is to be filled out by the voter is filled out. And so you’ll see that at the bottom of page 1 there, lines 33 and 34 have been amended. Otherwise if you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them on this bill.
Rep Tosh Any questions from Committee members? Seeing none, no one has signed up to speak for or against the bill. Representative, you’re recognized to close with your bill.
Rep. McAlindon Thank you so much. I’m closed for my bill and ask for a good vote.
Rep Tosh Okay. I have a motion from Representative Richmond, has a motion of do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. All opposed, say no. Congratulations, your bill is passed.
Rep. McAlindon Thank you, Chairman, Committee.
Rep Tosh Committee members, the next item on today’s agenda will be House Bill 1469. Representative Wing. Representative Wing, just identify yourself to the Committee, and then you are recognized to present your bill.
Rep. Wing Hello Committee. My name is Carlton Wing. I’m the state representative for District 70 , North Little Rock and Sherwood. House Bill 1469 is fairly simple. All we’re doing is bringing into uniformity the various different types of municipal elections, some with mayoral, some with city manager. This is all agreed upon language with the cities, counties and the State Board of Election Commissioners just to bring everybody into the same deadlines. It’s just that simple.
Rep Tosh You’ve heard the presentation from Representative Wing. Is there any questions from Committee members? Representative Bentley? I have a motion at the proper time. Any questions from Committee members? Seeing none, we have a motion of do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. All opposed say no. Congratulations Representative, your bill has passed.
Rep. Wing Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Committee.
Rep Tosh Committee members, now we’re moving next to Senate Bill 258. Senator Dees. Representative Burkes, I’m assuming you’re here to present the bill, the Senate bill.
Rep. Burkes Yes, sir.
Rep Tosh Okay. If you would again identify yourself to the Committee and you’re recognized to present the bill.
Rep. Burkes Thank you, Mr. Chair. Rebecca Burkes, District 11. Senate Bill 258 prohibits the use of absentee ballot drop boxes, unmanned ballot drop boxes, for collecting absentee ballots. It’s designed to ensure the chain of custody of ballots and ensure that good ballots are not damaged when they’re left in these unmanned drop boxes. We don’t have widespread use in Arkansas of these drop boxes at all. So this won’t effect a great change for folks in our state right now. Arkansas is the sixth most secure in the country in election integrity, and we want to maintain that excellent record. One of the things to keep in mind is these unmanned ballot drop boxes could be vandalized, set on fire, stolen, etc., things that we don’t have concerns about when you drop something in the mail. Any questions?
Rep Tosh Any questions from Committee members? Representative Clowney, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Burkes, you listed to a lot of things that could happen to these drop boxes. We have used these. I remember Washington County utilized these a few years ago. Do we have any evidence that anything, any of the threats to election security that you’re concerned about have actually happened in the state of Arkansas?
Rep. Burkes I don’t have any statistics on these unmanned ballot drop boxes being set on fire or stolen or something happening to them. But it is a real possibility, very different than US Postal Service.
Rep Tosh Representative Wardlaw, you have a question?
Rep. Wardlaw Representative Burkes, you keep using the term ‘unmanned.’ But if I read the bill correctly, it doesn’t determine whether these are just eliminating manned or unmanned boxes. So if we’re only intention of eliminating the unmanned boxes, I think you need an amendment to say that the manned boxes are okay.
Rep. Burkes No, you can turn your absentee ballot in directly if you take it in to the county or you can drop it into a mailbox. So we’re eliminating the use of these drop boxes.
Rep. Wardlaw So your intention is to eliminate both manned and unmanned boxes?
Rep. Burkes Yes, the use of drop boxes for the purpose of collecting absentee ballots. That’s correct.
Rep. Wardlaw Thank you for the clarification.
Rep Tosh Other questions from Committee members? Representative Scott, you’re recognized for question.
Rep. Scott Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Representative Burkes, for being here. My quick question is, so if this passes into law and we’re faced with another pandemic and we’re in the middle of an election, these county clerks hands would be tied and they can’t actually use drop boxes to collect ballots like they were able to do during COVID?
Rep. Burkes That’s correct. Under this law, they wouldn’t be. Other provisions would have to be made if that were something that we wanted to adopt at that time.
Rep. Scott Thank you.
Rep Tosh Represntative Jean, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Jean Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Burkes, do we have any counties that have these? I’m not aware of any drop boxes. Do we have any in the state of Arkansas?
Rep. Burkes My understanding is that in the last election, there were two locations that utilized this drop box. But like I said, it hasn’t been used widespread across Arkansas.
Rep. Jean Do you know where they were at?
Rep. Burkes I do not. But I have somebody here who could probably address that.
Rep. Jean I’d just like to know in case for education purposes.
Rep. Burkes Absolutely.
Rep Tosh Go ahead and bring to the table who can testify to that, Representative. If you would state your name to the Committee again, who you represent.
McGraw (SoS) Chantelle McGraw, assistant director of elections for Secretary of State.
Rep Tosh Did you hear Representative Jean’s question?
McGraw (SoS) I did.
Rep Tosh You’re recognized to answer the question.
McGraw (SoS) I believe what you’re referring to is Pulaski County had a couple manned drop boxes during the 2020 election.
Rep. Jean Okay.
Rep Tosh You need a follow up?
Rep. Jean Did they use them in 2022?
McGraw (SoS) Not that I’m aware of.
Rep. Jean Okay. Thank you.
Rep Tosh Representative Wardlaw, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Wardlaw So they had manned drop boxes. Who were the people standing there? Were they employees of the clerk’s office. Were they volunteers? Were they poll watchers? Poll workers? Who were they?
McGraw (SoS) As far as I understand, they were paid employees of the clerk’s office.
Rep. Wardlaw Okay. So if they were paid employees of the clerk’s office watching a box, what’s the difference in handing your ballot at the clerk’s office, as Representative Burkes alluded to? Because those are employees that you’re handing it to. So what are they putting that ballot in at the clerk’s office? Is that not a box as well?
McGraw (SoS) Yeah, I would agree with that. It’s definitely a ballot box that they hand in to the clerk’s office as well.
Rep. Wardlaw So would the bill–
Rep Tosh Representative, do you need a follow up?
Rep. Wardlaw Yes, sir.
Rep Tosh You’re recognized.
Rep. Wardlaw So would the bill not need an amendment to address that so that you could still have that box manned in the clerk’s office as well?
Rep. Burkes If I might respond to that. I think that handing it to an official to be stored for safekeeping is very different than dropping them in a box yourself.
Rep. Wardlaw Follow up.
Rep Tosh You need a follow up?
Rep. Wardlaw Yes, sir, to that.
Rep Tosh Yes, you do.
Rep. Wardlaw She just testified to Representative Lane’s [Jean’s] question that they had two boxes manned by an employee of the clerk’s office. Did I hear that correctly? Just nod your head. This is not my question.
Rep. Burkes Yes.
Rep. Wardlaw That’s what you’re eliminating here. That would be the same thing as dropping it off in the clerk’s office to a paid employee to be put in a box. That’s a problem.
Rep. Burkes Well, when the employee receives the ballot, how they store it is up to the process that they use within the county, whether they put it in a box or an envelope or some drawer, whatever mechanism they use to store those.
Rep Tosh Representative Richmond, do you have a question? You’re recognized.
Rep. Richmond Thank you, Mr. Chair. Either one of you can answer this particular question, so whoever wants to do it. My question is a manned drop box versus an unmanned drop box. Do you still have the same issues with chain of custody with a manned drop box as you would with an unmanned drop box?
Rep. Burkes My thoughts on that would be that with a manned dropbox or a manned envelope or a manned drawer, whatever the county decides, however they decide to store those, it’s up to the county person who’s maintaining that and receiving it versus watching somebody drop in a drop box. They might turn their back. They might not be at the box at all times so that the public can drop these absentee ballots in.
Rep Tosh Follow up?
Rep. Richmond Follow up, please?
Rep Tosh Yes.
Rep. Richmond In your statement, you talked about the problem of a chain of custody and we know that the chain of custody is incredibly important to be sure that something is not tampered with. So, again, if you have a dropbox that has a paid employee from the clerk’s office there, is that chain of custody, can it be potentially broken sometime during the transport from wherever that box is to wherever it’s going? Is that still a big concern versus, I completely understand, an unmanned drop box, that the chain of custody is never established?
Rep. Burkes Correct.
Rep. Richmond Okay. So does a manned drop box have the same potential of being pilfered because of the lack of chain of custody?
Rep. Burkes No, not if it is truly being manned. That’s correct.
Rep. Richmond All right. Thank you.
Rep Tosh Representative Scott, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Scott Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Burkes, I think you said only 2 counties used the drop boxes and in 2020?
Rep. Burkes 1 county, 2 boxes in Pulaski.
Rep. Scott Follow up?
Rep Tosh You’re recognized.
Rep. Scott So has Pulaski County used the box beyond just the 2020 when we were in the middle of a pandemic?
Rep. Burkes No, not since.
Rep. Scott Okay. Thank you.
Rep Tosh Representative Clowney, you have a question?
Rep. Clowney Yes, Mr. Chair. Thank you. It’s my recollection that the Washington County clerk stood outside of the Washington County courthouse and accepted absentee ballots during 2020. Is that recollection correct? And if so, would that be made illegal under this bill?
Rep. Burkes I wasn’t present for that. So I don’t know if that’s what happened. Do you? Okay. I can’t confirm or deny that. As long as the official is receiving the ballots, the absentee ballots, again, however they choose to store them, an envelope, a drop box, or a shoe box, or a locked box is up to the process of the official.
Rep. Clowney Follow up.
Rep Tosh You’re recognized.
Rep. Clowney Sorry, I’m just confused. You said it’s up to the official, but they wouldn’t have the option of doing what we did in Washington County in 2020 if this became law unless there’s something I’m missing. Am I missing something?
Rep. Burkes If what happened in Washington County is an official stood outside and collected the absentee ballots and then put them in a storage container, that wouldn’t be prohibited under this.
Rep Tosh Representative Moore, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Moore Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Burkes, I love the idea, but I’ve never seen a ballot drop box. And so I know there’s been some confusion as far as we’re all concerned about the security of these ballots. But what is a ballot drop box and what is the difference between a county clerk establishing a remote collection facility versus just an iron box locked shut? If you could help me understand what exactly were trying to prohibit, that would be very helpful.
Rep. Burkes If you saw any part of the movie 2000 Mules, you might have seen an example there of a ballot drop box being out in the open. And it’s not postal service. It’s doesn’t have necessary, wouldn’t necessarily have the same protections that the Postal Service would provide. And people can walk up at any time day or night and put ballots in those in those drop boxes if they’re not secured under some kind of regulation like the Postal Service might ensure. Because you could walk up to one of those blue mailboxes and just as easily put your ballot in for convenience. We don’t know or have the same protections that they wouldn’t be stolen, set on fire, something like that happening to those. It’s just as easy to walk up to a mailbox and put your ballots in there.
Rep Tosh Any further questions from Committee members? Representative Wardlaw, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Wardlaw Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think it’s a request to the sponsor, if that’s permissible.
Rep Tosh Yes, you’re recognized.
Rep. Wardlaw I think, to make me feel comfortable, I would like to see an amendment with a definition of the drop box and also the permissions of a county employee to be able to stand out and collect ballots and put it into a lockbox. And maybe that’s the definition that needs to be present is how that takes place. So I would request that you pull the bill down and fix the dropbox definition before we move forward.
Rep. Burkes Okay. We can absolutely do that.
Rep Tosh Representative Burkes, are you making a request to the Chair to pull the bill down?
Rep. Burkes Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Rep Tosh That request is granted, and we’ll look forward to seeing you back in here before this Committee when those corrections are made. Thank you.
Rep. Burkes Thank you.
Rep Tosh Next on today’s agenda is Representative Lundstrum. I know you had another committee to go to, and I apologize. I believe we have an amendment. Staff is handing out the amendment, Committee. Committee members, you should have the amendment in front of you. Represenative Lundstrum, if you would, identify yourself to the Committee and you are recognized to present your amendment.
Rep. Lundstrum Thank you, Chairman. This simply strikes one word and so that we have complete agreement on the bill with clerks.
Rep Tosh Representative Lundstrum has presented the amendment. Any questions on the amendment? Seeing none, Representative Lundstrum are you closed with your amendment?
Rep. Lundstrum Yes, sir.
Rep Tosh We have a motion from Representative Bentley of a do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. All opposed, say no. The amendment has passed. Representative Lundstrum, you’re now recognized to present your House bill as amended.
Rep. Lundstrum Thank you, Chairman. Colleagues, this simply puts into law the tracking system for ballot delivery and adds a process of preservation of spoiled ballots. It also codifies the procedures for specifying the process regarding damaged and defective ballots. And this also requires a complete chain of custody for transportation of ballots. And this is something that all 75 counties have agreed upon. And with that, I’ll entertain any questions.
Rep Tosh Any questions from Committee members? Representative Clowney, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Lundstrum, I’m looking on page– I don’t know what page I’m on. Where you talk about allowing the public access for in-person viewing of the absentee canvasing process. Is that currently– so, is it my understanding that a lot of counties allow for that right now, you’re just codifying that every county has to?
Rep. Lundstrum Yes.
Rep. Clowney Thank you.
Rep Tosh Any further questions from Committee members? Seeing none, no one has signed up speak for or against the bill. I have a motion from the Committee. Representative Bentley, you did make a motion. I have a motion of a do pass. Any discussion on the motion as amended? Any discussion on the motion? All in favor, say aye. All opposed, say nay. Congratulations your bill is passed as amended.
Rep. Lundstrum Thank you, colleagues. Appreciate your time.
Rep Tosh Committee members, next we have Senate Bill 254. Representative–correction, Senator Crowell, are you– okay. We’ll move on to Senate Bill 255. Senator McKee? Okay, Committee members, we will move on to House Bill 1510. I’m sorry, I didn’t see you. You here for Senate Bill 255, sir?
Sen. McKee Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep Tosh Okay, just identify yourself to the Committee and you’re recognized to present your bill.
Sen. McKee Matt McKee, State Senate District 6. Members, this is a pretty simple bill. Simply restricts the funding to pay for election-related expenses to government sources so that no outside money can be used to pay for election expenses. That excludes campaign funds from those restrictions. I’d be open to any questions.
Rep Tosh Committee, you’ve heard the presentation from the Senator. Representative Wardlaw, you’re recognized for a question. Any questions from Committee members? Any serious questions from Committee members? [laughter] Seeing none, no one signed up to speak for or against the bill. Do I have a motion? Representative Bentley, your motion? I have a motion of do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor, say aye. All opposed, say no. Congratulations Senator, your bill has passed. Now Committee members, moving on to our final item on today’s agenda will be House Bill 1510. Representative Ray, and do have a handout for this bill. And I’m sorry, we have an amendment. Colleagues, that amendment is being handed out at this time. And we also have a handout, an amendment and a handout. So both those are being distributed this time. Representative Ray, if you would, just identify yourself to Committee and you’re recognized to present your amendment.
Rep. Ray Thank you, Mr. Chairman. David Ray, District 69. Colleagues, the amendment just sets the effective date for the act as January 1, 2024.
Rep Tosh Committee, you’ve heard the presentation on the amendment. We have any questions from Committee members? Seeing none, do I have a motion? Representative Meeks, a motion of do pass. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor, say aye. All opposed say no. The amendment has been adopted. Now you can now present the bill as amended.
Rep Tosh Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Colleagues, if this bill looks familiar, it’s because many of you have seen it before in previous sessions. This bill would simply standardize the election calendar for special elections on local measures and questions, those involving issues such as sales tax, bond issues, etc., so that they’re held on one of two dates in each calendar year, those being the primary and the general election in normal election years, and then in odd numbered years, they would be the dates on which the primary or the general election would be held. Outside of those two dates per year, the bill does allow for a local government to hold an emergency special election if they meet the criteria outlined in the bill on page 2 there. There’s three instances in which that would be permissible. Colleagues, the reason for the bill is because– and I know this is a topic that has been discussed in this Committee before– local governments in Arkansas have used special elections held at irregular times consistently to raise taxes on our citizens. And in many instances, this is a deliberate strategy aimed at keeping turnout low so that the folks who do show up are those with a vested interest in the passage of that measure. So by fixing this, we’ll do 3 things. This will help keep the tax burden on our citizens low when it’s obvious that when voters actually know when the election is going to be held, it’s harder to sneak things past them. Our combined state and local sales tax in Arkansas is currently 9.47%, which is the third highest in the entire country. And we are never going to get that issue under control unless we fix our special election problem. The second thing this will do is increase voter participation. We know that there’s a direct correlation between special elections and voter participation. When elections are put on these dates, you can see the data in front of you, the turnout is abysmal. And the average turnout doesn’t truly reflect what we see in a lot of instances. You know, just a couple of weeks ago, there was a special election on Valentine’s Day in North Little Rock for a 5 mill increase for the library. The turnout was 3.8%. That’s just one of many, many examples I can give you. And thirdly, this will save taxpayers money. It’s estimated that between 1981 and– sorry, between 1981 and 2018, we spent an estimated $10 million on special elections. And so that’s what this bill would accomplish, and I’d be happy to answer any questions.
Rep Tosh Representative Ray, could you just give me an example of an emergency election? I mean, it’s in the bill. I’m just curious what that would look like.
Rep. Ray Yes, sir. There’s three things.One would be an interpretation by a federal or state court requiring a local government to do something that they wouldn’t have the ability to do unless they levied a tax, for example. Another would be a natural disaster. We’re sort of in tornado alley, so I like to use that example, if you had a devastating tornado come through and it were necessary to issue debt or something for the purposes of a capital project. Those are a couple of examples that come to mind.
Rep Tosh Thank you for your answer. I have a question from Representative Clowney.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Ray, you mentioned at the beginning of your presentation that we’ve heard this bill before. It’s my recollection that this chamber declined to vote it out twice last session. Are there any differences in this version versus the version that we did not pass last session?
Rep. Ray Yeah, you’ll notice this bill is much shorter than the previous bill. This is only affecting local measures and questions.
Rep Tosh Follow up?
Rep. Clowney Follow up. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess, my concern is that, you know, I’m picking up on this thread of not trusting Arkansas voters, that, you know, somehow holding these elections on one of four days that are set out in statute versus one of two days gives us a lot of opportunity to sneak things by the voters. Can you explain why it is that you think this incentivizes only the people who are for what is being voted on to go out and vote? It’s my kind of perception that when these elections happen, people are motivated who are very for or very against a thing. Why is it that you think having these on one of four days rather than one of two days is a benefit only to the yes side of these issues?
Rep. Ray Well, I don’t know that it benefits particularly a yes. It depends on what the issue is, right, whether it would benefit the yes side or the no side. But I will just say, in general, voters aren’t used to going to the polls in February or in August. And so that is for most folks who are just trying to live their lives, work a job, take their kids to T-ball practice or gymnastics, you know, people aren’t combing the news to find out if there’s going to be a local option sales tax election in the middle of August when they have their summer vacation planned. I think that our voters would benefit from regular and reliable election dates, either the primary or the general in each year. And I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
Rep Tosh Representative Berry, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. M Berry Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And while I appreciate Representative Clowney’s question, whereas the difference between Representative Clowney’s district and mine, and I don’t know if Representative Ray has any statistics on it, but the problem that I have in a rural area is that there’s not a lot– we don’t even have a newspaper in some of my counties. So getting the word out, a lot of times we don’t even know when we have a special election unless there’s a sign in front of the courthouse. So, what it costs a rural county, I know in my county and I don’t know if you have any of these figures, but let’s say take Franklin County. It costs, for a special election, $30,000 that my senior center needs very much. And we’re spending it on special elections where 650 people will turn out for an election to raise taxes. Whereas in larger metropolitan areas, they have newspapers, they have radio, they have all these different means to broadcast the fact that they’re going to have special elections. Do you have any numbers on what it costs an average rural county to have a special election or how the voter turnout in rural counties?
Rep. Ray Yeah, I don’t have it broken down by rural versus urban, but I think your your points illustrate a problem, which is that it’s extra money that counties have to expend to host a special election and then you get even lower turnout to hold it on that date. So there’s less participation from voters. And I think it’s worth stating that greater voter participation brings more legitimacy to the actions of government. So thank you for that.
Rep Tosh Representative Underwood, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Underwood Representative Ray, I think the comment was made that by passing this, somehow, some way we don’t trust voters. But to me it seems like by having special elections at uncommon times like Valentine’s Day as an example, that’s truly not trusting voters because you’re not trusting more voters to be able to participate. Am I wrong in that?
Rep. Ray Nope, I would agree with that observation.
Rep Tosh Representative Clowney, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have to say, I don’t follow that line of reasoning. If we are having an election and voters can show up when they show up and tell us what they want. Again, these are not things that are happening in the middle of the night with no warning. And I will say, I hear and appreciate, Representative Berry, your point about communication being harder in rural places. I hear the argument about turnout. I hear the argument about communication in smaller places. But we got a handout, the heading of which, and the way that the first reason that Representative Ray you gave when you presented your bill was, that we have higher sales taxes in this state because these special elections are allowed to be held four times a year rather than two. What I’m still not understanding is those communication problems are consistent across a precinct, right, across a group of people who would be voting. Why are we so convinced that they’re showing up, that the people who do show up, are not an accurate cross section of those voters in that district or at least those who care enough about an issue to show up on one extra day to vote for a thing? And the reason that I’m asking that question is because I feel like our local entities need flexibility. And they are not unlimited currently, they’re still limited to four times a year. I don’t understand why the flexibility isn’t more important than these concerns that I’m still not convinced are really a problem.
Rep. Ray Look, I think how this typically plays out is, I’ll use the example of the local option sales tax because you have that data in front of you. A lot of times a sales tax will be referred out to the voters for approval. It’ll be put on a date that is not consistent with when people usually go to the polls. Very few people, other than those that would directly benefit or who would directly benefit from passage of the sales tax. They’re the ones that know when the election is going to be held because it’s on an irregular date, you know, a February or an August date, for example. They’re highly motivated to turn out and the broader general public doesn’t know that it’s occurring. And that’s why these things tend to sail through. I mean, that’s generally how this occurs.
Rep Tosh Any further questions from Committee members? Representative Scott.
Rep. Scott Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Representative Ray, is there any known opposition, like the Municipal League or anybody against this bill?
Rep. Ray Yeah, you know, the Municipal League has generally been opposed to this bill in the past. I don’t know if they’re going to testify against it today or not.
Rep. Scott Okay. Thank you.
Rep Tosh Representative Clowney, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. Representative Ray, who pays for an election if it’s not in March or November or May or November? If it’s in February or August, who pays for the election?
Rep. Ray I don’t know the answer to that question.
Rep. Clowney Follow up?
Rep. Ray I guess I would just say the taxpayers.
Rep. Clowney I believe it’s the city. And so if it’s the city, why shouldn’t the city be able to make the decision about whether to hold that election and spend that money or not?
Rep. Ray Well, because the reason for the bill is that I think voters deserve reliable and consistent and predictable times to go to the polls. I’m making the argument that it is a good policy decision to set those parameters. And so, it sounds like we just have a philosophical disagreement on what those parameters ought to be.
Rep Tosh Representative Berry, you’re recognized for a question.
Rep. M Berry Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Representative Ray, does a superintendent or a mayor just wake up in the middle of the night and say, we need to have a special election to raise a millage or raise taxes? Is that typically what happens? Or do they know in advance when they need to raise taxes in their respective communities?
Rep. Ray No, I think these things can be foreseen in advance and planned accordingly.
Rep. M Berry Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep Tosh Any further questions from Committee members? Committee, we’ve got one person signed up to speak for the bill, Jeremy Orbital. I hope I pronounced that correctly. If you would, just– did I get close? Pretty close? How close was–
Horpital You’re closer than my mother in law. [Laughter] I’ve been married for over 10 years, so, yeah.
Rep Tosh Thank you, you’re recognized.
Horpital Thank you, Chairman Tosh, and Representative Ray for this bill. My name is Jeremy Horpital. I’m associate professor of economics at UCA. I’m also the director of the Arkansas Center for Research and Economics at UCA. My testimony today is based on my research as a professor, but it is not an official statement of UCA. I just want to share with you the handout that you have is based on the research I’ve done at UCA with students. And I just want to share what I think are some of the key data points on that sheet, but some additional data as well that might answer some questions have been asked here today. So some of the data you can see there. For example, the average voter turnout at special elections for local option sales taxes over a 40 year time period was 19%. But also to get more into the detail of that, for 100 of those special elections, it was below 10%. So there are a lot of them that have low turnout. General and primary elections, of course, have higher turnout. The second point I’d like to make is that tax increases are much more likely to pass at the special elections– 76%, you can see there in the data. But also, I think it’s important to highlight that about half of them do pass still in a primary or a general election. So holding them in a primary or general election does not preclude them from passing. It just makes them less likely. And then finally, I think, the data I’m showing you is for the time period when there was a lot more flexibility for localities to hold these elections with the change that came into effect in 2022. That’s when they were limited to the four fixed dates in a year. So we don’t have a ton of data since that’s such a recent change. But I’ll just show for the data we have found since January 2022. There have been a couple of elections for local option sales taxes. There were 5 of them that took place during the May primary and they had turnout of about 14.5% on average. But then there were several special elections since then. In Conway, where I live, we had in February of 2022 a bond issue for A&P taxes that did pass and had turnout of less than 6%. There was a local option sales tax in North Little Rock in August 2022, as well as in Little Rock, they had six bond issues at that election. Both of those were below 6%. And then the final one that we have located was the one that Representative Ray mentioned, the property tax millage in North Little Rock, which was just this past February. And that one did fail. So sometimes they do fail even with low turnout. But that had a about just under 4% turnout. So in conclusion, I think as has been discussed here, Arkansas does have the third highest average sales tax in the country. And at 3 percentage points of that, 9.5 is from local option sales taxes. So I think this is an important thing to to look at if we’re looking to limit those increases in the future, as well as to increase voter turnout. So thank you for allowing me to speak and I’d be glad to take any questions or elaborate on my research. There’s a white paper if you want to read that.
Rep Tosh Representative Meeks, you’re recognized?.
Rep. Meeks Thank you. Thank you, sir, for being here. And this may be more of a statistician type question, so if it’s not in your wheelhouse, please tell me so. The purpose of holding an election is to get the will of the population. And as you do polling, the more people you poll, the greater the likelihood you’re actually going to capture what that will is. If you’re only sampling, say, Representative Jean and I, you may or may not get the will of what the Committee as a whole is. So my question is, how large of a sample size do you generally need to get in a population to get a true understanding of what their will would be? So, for example, in these elections you quoted only 6% of the population is turning out. Is that enough to really get the true will of what that population is? And if not, what percentage turnout do we need to be getting to really truly know if that is the will of the population?
Horpital Thank you, Representative Meeks. That’s a great question. I think the short answer is there’s no fixed number. We could say that we’ll get that. But I think that the smaller the sample is, the more likely it’s going to be not representative. But I can’t give you a turn out rate at which you would necessarily be getting close to that. But the law of large numbers would say the larger the sample they get, the more likely it is to be representative.
Rep. Meeks Thank you.
Rep Tosh Any further questions from Committee members? Seeing none, thank you, sir, for your testimony. Representative Ray, do you have further testimony?
Rep. Ray Yes, sir.
Rep Tosh Okay. Representative Ray has finished with his testimony. No one else is signed up to speak for or against the bill. Representative Richmond, you’re recognized.
Rep. Richmond I’ll make a motion do pass..
Rep Tosh Have a motion of do pass as amended. Thank you. We have a motion do pass as amended. Any discussion on the motion as amended? Representative Crawford, you’re recognized for discussion.
Rep. Crawford Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Representative Ray for bringing this. It’s time for citizens to take back, and I believe this is a step that in our cities and counties we can begin to take back the taxes that have been put on us. And hopefully we’ll be able to do that at the state level as well. Thank you.
Rep Tosh And–.
Rep. Crawford And I’m voting for it.
Rep Tosh Okay. Thank you, Representative Crawford. Any further discussion on the motion? Representative Clowney, you are recognized for discussion on the motion.
Rep. Clowney Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m a little bit, I’m a lot bothered by the rhetoric here that we’ve heard. We’ve heard a number of reasons. We’ve heard and received a hand out that this is about lowering sales tax. We’ve heard that this is about lowering costs. And we’ve also heard that this is about increasing voter turnout. I’m excited about increasing voter turnout. That piece of it, I hope that I see that thread consistently through this chamber and through this Committee in other pieces of legislation. But I have to say that passing a bill about the election process in general that is limiting our municipalities and cities this way in an attempt to weigh in as a legislature on one particular issue like sales tax is very concerning to me. I don’t think that’s our our place and I’ll be a no. Thanks.
Rep Tosh Representative Berry, you’re recognized for discussion on the motion.
Rep. M Berry Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate the Representative Clowney’s comments. But I’m here to represent 32,000 rural constituents. And the bottom line is when one of my counties have to spend $30,000 for 650 people to show up and vote, that’s $50 bucks a vote. And that money can go to my senior centers in my communities. And if a mayor or a superintendent cannot plan to have a millage increase or a rate increase, whatever they want to do, in conjunction with the special or general elections, then they shouldn’t be in a position of leadership. There’s no long range strategic planning on their part. And the bottom line is this bill makes it fair to our constituents all over the state of Arkansas, whether it be rural or it be in a greater metropolitan area, it makes it fair to those voters that they have a voice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Rep. M Berry Any further discussion on the motion? Seeing none, what’s the pleasure of the Committee? We have a motion do pass as amended. All in favor, say aye. All opposed, say no. The ayes have it. Congratulations, your bill is passed.
Rep. Ray Thank you, committee.
Rep. M Berry Committee members, thank you for being here today. This meeting is adjourned.